Mon 19 Feb 1776
House of Commons Minutes
Luna 19o die February 1776
Minutes taken before the Committee upon Stroudwater Navigation Bill.
[Act 3 G 2 produced and read]
Richard Capel Esqr
Remembers the Act in the year 1730 = am well acquainted with the Country - that nothing was done in pursuance of the Powers of the first mentioned Act.
[Act 32 G 2 produced and read]
Mr Benjamine Grazebrooke Junr
Has seen the Machines provided for the Navigation in pursuance of the last mentioned Act - that the Navigatn is not completed - believes they belong to the Commissioners & that they are perfected - knows not the value of the Machines.
Mr Thomas Ascomans
Has seen the Engines now remaining upon the River - that they are out of Repair not being used and are not worth any Thing unless used for the same Purpose = that most of the Iron work is lost.
[Articles 8th Decr 1774 produced]
[Two Books produced]
Adjd till Thursday at 12 O'clock
Jovis 22o Febry 1776
Petition against the Bill read,
No Counsel attend in behalf of the said Petition.
Mr John Skinner Stock attends as Agent for the Petitioners.
Mr John Jepson
Produces several Accounts and says Upwards of £4000 has been expended in the Works of the Navigation.
Mr Ascomans
Says the Canal was begun according to his Survey with intent to join Mr Cambridge's Millpond.
When was a Navigation is made in a River where there are many Mill and these employed, they are perpetually hurting the Navigation from the Nature of working the Mills by drawing down the Head = and that often in spite - can point out many Navigations of this kind - when Proprietors of Navigations and Millholders are continually at Variance - Instances one - Sidbury River which runs to Manningtree - the Navigation at this time is hurt by bringing in the Power of Millowners and the many Shoal thrown up - that continuing the works according the the Old plan will be attended with Inconveniences to the Millers and to the Navigation.
In what particular will the Navigation Benefit Commune?
In the Article of Coals - Things in the Dying Trade and Woolen Manufactory.
Where is the greatest Quantity of Coals used?
Don't know.
What is the present Price of Carriage of them at present?
Can't say.
Computations were made 20 years since of Five Shillings a Ton cheaper by the Navigation than by Land.
Whether any fixed price of Land Carriage then?
There was, but cannot say what - in Winter the Carriage was on Horses.
Whether there was a Turnpike Road at that Time?
No - but the Road is very bad now.
Was a Calculation then made of the Price of Carriage by the Navigation?
Yes - but can't recollect the Price.
Was it not then intended to go up the River?
It was - he then considered the Act and found Powers to make Cuts.
He does not know the Calculation of the Price of Coals and other Things.
Whether his present Opinion is upon a Calculation now or 20 years ago?
Upon the former Calculation - that as many or more Coals are brought up now as formerly - thinks Five Shillings a Ton may be saved by the Navigation.
Whether he has been at a Meeting to form a Calculation of the Price of Carriage of Goods
Has not.
What is the Expence of Carriage from Framiload to Wallbridge?
Can't say - has found no calculation of the Prices.
Mr J Grazebrook Junr
The Price of Carriage from Framiload to Wallbridge for 2 Tons is 15s 7½d in the Winter including the Toll.
What will two Tons cost by this Navigation?
Five Shillings.
How much for Lockage and
[Page 8 missing]
of the Town of Stroud.
Whether he has been used to employ Waggons?
Has been used to them.
What is the lowest Price for any small Distance?
From 5d or 9d to 1 Shilling a Ton.
What will be the Price of Carriage for a Mile?
Imaging about 1s/6d.
Is there not a difference of Toll between Summer and Winter?
2s/6d Difference - the Price of Carriage from Framiload to Stroud in Summer is 12s 1½d - the Price of Carriage is the same in Summer & Winter - except the Tolls.
What time of the year do they carry the Coals?
Much brought on Horse Backs in the Winter - a great many Persons keep Teams for Coals - some are employed at time in other Businesses..
Whether the first Turnpike they pass thro' is not at Cainscross?
It is.
What sort of Road from Stroud to the Bristol Road?
The upper part tolerable - the other part very bad.
What is the Price of Tonnage under the former Act?
3s/6s per Ton.
Upon a Tonnage of 3s/6d per Tone and a Freight at 3d what will be the Expence of the Carriage by the Navigation?
The same as before mentioned - the Expence from Framiload to Wallbridge by Land is 6 Shillings per Ton inclusive of Tolls.
Mr Edware Owen - a Barge owner - lives at Brosley in Shropshire.
Mr Grazebrook
Whether a great deal of Coal is not brought from ye hence ? ? by Lands Carriage?
Some is brought by Land Carriage.
Whether more will not be brought is the Navigatn goes on?
Apprehends not - when they are disappointed of back Carriage then they take Coals.
Mr Owen
What price will you deliver Coals for at Wallbridge if the Navign goes on?
Eleven Shillings Shopshire Coals & 12s Staffordshire = at the present Price in the Country.
How much the Freight of Coals up the Canal from Framiload to Wallbridge?
3d per Tone - Barges carry from 40 Tons to 80 Tons - in Slack water time Barges are often detained a logn time - was detained 10 weeks last Summer.
A Vessel of 30 Ton can pass Stourbridge at all Times, but at other places they cannot in dry times - they cannot pass at Bollar Pool with ay Boat for 3 or 4 Days in Slack Water time.
Sells Shropshire Coals at Gloucester by the whole Cargo for 10s/6d and at Framiload for 11 Shillings - whole Cargo will be delivered at Wallbridge as at Framiload with an addition of 3d per Ton.
Do you ever carry 70 Tons to Framiload?
Yes - sometimes.
The vessels are safe where there are Navigations made, than in any Tide River.
Mr Grazebrook
Whether the 2s/6d Toll is not for Coals only?
Yes,
Whether the Carriage of other Things is not more than Coals.
The Carriage of Dyers Things &c from Gloucester to Stroud is One Shilling per Cwt..
The Bristol Trows do not stop at Framiload, but proceed to Gloucester.
What is the Price of Other Goods besides Coal from Framiload to Stroud?
Does not know,
Jno Capel Esw - agreed for the Carriage of Coals for 3 miles and an half for 1s/6d per Ton - he did not contract for a Back Carriage.
[Consent Bill produced and proved by Mr Grazebrook and Mr Jepson]
[Preamble agreed]
Adjd till Tomorrow at 12.
Veneriis 23o February 1776
Mr Yeoman
I always apprehended from my first Survey in 1755 that a Reservoir was necessary at the Head of the Canal.
The Dimensions of the Reservoir
The upper one is Three Quarters of a Mile long and is proposed to be made 3 feet Deeper than the Navigation - the Navigation will be 4½ Feet - 42 feet wide - 90 Locks full - the next Reservoir below Mr Turner's is one Mile and 5 Furlongs long - that is the same Width and 2 feet Deeper than the Canal - that contains 74 Locks full - that is the whole of Reservoirs - one comes from the Head of the Canal - the Second is a quarter of a MIle below the First.
Is the Depth of the Reservoir below the Bed of the Riber?
In some Places it is - others not, but I believe where this first Reservoir Joins the upper Part of the River the Bottom of it will be Deeper than the River.
Will that part of the Reservoir at Lodgmore Mill be deeper than the Bed of the Riber?
Yes - Deeper than Mr Cooks Pound..
What advantage will the Mills at Lodgmore Mill receive by the Deepening of that Part of the Canal?
All the Water that will not be used for the Navigation my flow out of that Reservoir into that Mill Pond.
How will the Water that is lodged in that part of the Canal ? his below the Mills be applicable to the Use of them?
Whether the Water that lies in the Bottom of the Canal below the Bed of the River will ever rise to the Top of the Canal (all of them) I won't pretend to say = but I do say that from the Top of that Canal all the water that we don't use for Navign may flow out of our Reservoir into Mr Cooks Mill Head.
Will no the Mills be deprived of that Water which his below the Bed of the River in the Canal?
I wish I could give a direct Answer to this but suppose that the Water should forever lie there.
Question repeated.
I can't give a direct answer - my ? that though the Identical Water that his below the Bed of the River may not in a given time come out of that Canal yet an equal Quantity to that that lies here must run off Waste if we do not want it.
13,530 Tons of Water is in the additional 3 feet of Depth in the Reservoir.
How much of that 7½ feet of Water in the first Reservoir is applicable to the Use of the Mill?
I should imagine that one half of that Quantity may be spared for the Use of the Mill.
Are any Banks to be raised, above the Reservoir?
Yes - the Height will depend upon the Quantity of Earth thrown up.
The Depth of the lock coming out of the Reservoir is 5 feet 2 Inches.
What is the Dimensions of the Lock?
The full Lock contains 148 Tons & 6/10.
Is there any Restraint in the Bill to prevent Drawing off the Water below a certain Height?
I believe there is not.
If there any Water used to form the Reservoir wch was used before?
The Reservoir will be supplied with the Waste Water.
How was the Upper Mill worked before?
By the Pound - apprehends the Water at the Mills will be doubled.
Whether you mean to confine yourself to the Use of the Three Brooks on Sundays only?
No - my Proposition was to make the Reservoir ample and sufficient for all the Trade that can be expected upon the Navigation and 2/3d every Week may be used by the Millmen - we intend to communicated with all the Water - there is to be a Communication with Mr Cooks Pound.
Have you any Calculation of the Quantity of Water take from the Two Brooks?
Not any particular
Do you know Cuckold's Brook?
Very well.
Is that below the first Reservoir?
It ow runs in to the River below Mr Cooks Mill.
Does it not run into the River above Mr Chances and other Mills?
It is intended to bring it into the Upper Reservoir.
The Dudbridge Stream comes into the River at Mr Turners Mill Dam - it is proposed to communicate the Canal and the River at Mr Turners Mill - The Dudbridge Water comes with it - we receive the Benefit of the four Streams every day in the Week.
The water Depth of our Canal which is One Mile and five Furlongs long will contain 74 deep Locks at 9 feet of Water - I apprehend that one Third of that Quantity may be sufficient for the Navigation - it will appear that 20 Locks per Week will answer the Ends of the Navigation - the Surplus may be used by Mr Turner.
Will the Water saved be of use to Mills?
No - nor will it prejudice them.
Will not the Water in the Reservoir be spent in the same, or in how much longe time than it is in collecting?
The Quantity of Water that I propose to be used by the additional Depth before mentid for one Mile and five Furlongs must be take out of the use of the Navigation as often as Boats pass and repass - for the same. Reason if we save 74 Locks of Water on Sunday we have a Right to be ? what we shall want for the Navigation - That depends upon the Power ? look how to draw down our Canal at his Pleasure in that Case it may be reduced in Two Days so as to take away all that was Saved on Sunday.
From whence is the Navigation to be supplied the rest of the Week?
By repaying ourselves the Water.
Whether any Water is intended to be take out of the Reservoir for the Use of the Navigation but what is sufficient to fill the Locks at the time the Boats pass?
Certainly not.
Whether those Locks can't be made so Close so as to lose away little Water?
They can.
How many Tons in 24 Hours may be the loss at the Locks?
If well executed no above one Lock full a Week - There will not be above 20 Locks full in a Week necessary for the Navigation.
What will become of the Rest of the Water that is in the Reservoir?
It will run down the old River as it used to do and supply the Mills fed by the Reservoir.
What will become of the Surplus?
That will be for the Supply of the Mills the same as the other Water.
That it will go through Mr Cooks Waste into the Mills below or to the Supply of his Mill.
Will Mr Cooks Mill be Benefitted or prejudiced thereby?
I am certain it will be Benefitted - after the Navigatn is supplied Mr Cook will have the Benefit of the Water.
Whether Mr Cook can draw the Water off so as to prevent the Water from supplying the Lock?
Not without it is done Mischievously - There will be a Loss by Leakage and Evaporation, but can't tell how much.
Would Mr Cook in the Week when 30 Locks are used have more Water that he has now?
Yes by 60 Locks.
Do you know the Depth of Mr Turners Mill?
Can't tell exactly it is of different Heights - I never measured it.
Is the Bottom of Mr Turners Mill Pond below or above the bottom of the proposed Canal?
I believe above it.
The now can his mill have any Benefit of the Canal Water?
Mr Turner if there is nothing to prevent him may draw down half a yard or near 2 foot of Water from the Canal.
Every time the Canal is used a Lock full of Water will be lost.
Whether he does not take the Water wch would otherwise go away without doing Mr Turner Benefit a part of it?
Are not you able to give Mr Turner Water when he wants it?
Certainly Mr Turne will not only be Benefitted by all the Surplus Water not used on the Sunday as Water but there is scarce a night in the year bu some of his Water runs to Waste which will be prevented by the Reservoir.
Whether upon the whole Mr Turner will be benefitted by this Navign?
Yes certainly.
Will not Water be carried on in the Canal to the Prejudice of several Mills below?
All the Mills below will receive a benefit from that part of the Sunday's Water which we do not use.
Whether one Lock of Water from the upper Lock will not be sufficient to supply every Lock the Boat passes through/
It will
Do you propose to erect a Dam in Mr Turner's Mill Pond?
It is proposed not to make a Dam but to make an Occasion to Stop that in Case Mr Turner should want to repair his Mill that the Stream may be stopped in order that the Navigation may go on during the Time of such Repair - another Use of it is - That the case Mr Turner draws his Water too low for our Navign ? for the space of 5 or 6 Minutes it will be necessary to put down the Stop to raise the Water again to fill the Lock.
By what means will it fill in so short a Time?
If it does not fill in the Common Course of the Water in the River we shall fill it from the Canal.
Do you not intend to carry an Acquaduct over Mr Turner's Mill Tail?
We do, it will not stop or prejudice Mr Turner's Mill.
Will not the Navigatn disturb the Water?
It will not - the Acquaduct must have full 6 feet Water.
How much will the Height of the Acquaduct be above the Water in the Mill Tail when at Work?
It will not be above it when they are at work - I mean the Arch of the Acquaduct will be below the Surface of the Water from 4 to 6 Inches when the Mill at work - it will not stop the Mill.
What is the Depth of the Water at the Mill Tail?
About half a yard.
Mr Joh Gleave
Do you know the Depth of Mr Turners Mill Pond?
Six feet three Inches at about 60 yards from the Head - about 100 yards further - 5 Feet 2 Inches
Sabbati 240 die Febry 1776
Mr Yeoman
Whether in a dry Season and of a probable increase of the Trade of the Navigatn may it not require so many Locks full of Water as to prejudice the Mills?
I apprehend the Sunday's Water will Supply the Navigation without taking any from the Mills, and with respect to the inequality of Trade suppose in one Week there should be 2 Barges pass and repass down this River there will be 34 Locks full left still for the use of the Mill more than is now - and suppose the Trade should be so unequal that in one Week no Barges shd pass or repass and 40 come another Week the Mills then would have the Benefit of all the Water that comes in that Week.
Whether the Principal use of this Navigatn will not be for the Carriage of Coals?
I apprehend it will.
Mr Edward Owen
Was he upon the River Severn - carried Coals to Gloucester - can't navigate Coals to Gloucester in a Dry Season - in a Medium way am hindered 3 Weeks or a Month 2 or 3 times in a Summer - can go to Framiload when we go to Gloucester - at Spring Tides.
If the Locks should be opened for other Purposes than for Coals what Quantity of Water will be lost at the Locks upon the Severn at the time when Water is low?
About a foot or two in Depth that Lock will ? when the low Water is Navigable - Boats will come in at low Water so that a an average there will be less water expended at the Severn Lock than at any above.
Mr Yeoman
Is the Canal in the narrowest part 120 yards wide?
It is.
Is the Line discussed in the Plan the Line you intend to pursue?
Yes - it is the most convenient.
Mr .... Agent for the Bill
Upon this Navign 2s a Ton is meant to be taken if the Company can afford it, if not they would wish to be at the Old Toll.
Mr Ascomans
Can you do without making a dam?
No - the preservation of the Lands depends on the Permanency of the Banks & it will be necessary to Puddle - no Dam will be made in Mr Cooks Mill pond.
Adjd till Tuesday.
